Wednesday, April 10, 2013

T1 BS changes revisited

In the spirt of CCP listening to feedback, shocking I know, CCP Rise and team has made some changes to the t1 BS after the initial response from the community was somewhat mixed.

Caldari BS

Minmatar BS

Amarr BS

Gallente BS

Forum - Features and issues Discussion

Now let me look back through these changes and see what has actually changed.

Caldari quick breakdown....
Rohk - Unchanged since last post
Raven - Unchanged since last post
Scorpion - Trading in a high slot for an extra low slot.

Minmatar quick breakdown...
Maelstrom - Still unchanged
Tempest - Now an "Attack BS" instead of a "Combat BS" this means it will retain more of it's agility, and a lower sig, but at the cost of not getting as much HP. However, it will still have more HP than it does currently.
Typhoon - Lowered sig res and gave back the turret slots, but no turret hull bonuses.

Amarr quick breakdown....

  • Abaddon - Unchanged since last post
  • Apocalypse - Total cap increased, and a little more armor HP added.
  • Armageddon - There is a blurb from Rise acknowledging that the Armageddon is hugely changed, but he hasn't changed or rolled back any of the drone/neut nastyness. Base of this change is that there is considerable overlap between the Abaddon and the Armageddon without the changes.

Gallente quick breakdown...

  • Hyperion - Or should we say Hypwnion? Updated changes are.... 10% hybrid turret damage, 7h(-1h) 5m, 7L(+1L), 6 turret slots instead of 8, 125 m3 drone bandwidth! (drone bay of 175m3!).
  • Megathron - Winathon? Anyways, Now a gun dependent platform, the Mega gave up it's utility high... for ANOTHER LOW. So we are looking at 7/4/8 now, 7 turret slots, lower sig radius, no missile slots, 75m3 Drone bay and bandwidth. EDIT : After a good conversation with Sard Caid in the comments of this post, there are a few other factors to be worried about with the Megathron change. specifically if there is any reason to fly the Mega over the Hype with these changes. The Hype will have 5 heavy/sentry drones and enough backup space to field warrior or ECM or even three backup heavy drones, in addition it will have an important utility high that can be used with heavy nuet, or smart bomb to effectively help counter smaller ships, and or drone swarms. The Mega meanwhile loses it's utility high, loses drones, already had a tracking bonus, that still didn't obsolete the need for a web, the 8/5/6 slot layout and setup does seem more appealing now, or at least, make no change and leave it as-is. I have a feeling this isn't the last of the t1 BS revamp changes and hopefully the mega will get another looking at.
  • Dominix - No changes, though there is a tantalizing bit about a sentry drone revamp upcoming, and that would be pretty sexy for anything that does or can use Sentries.

Now the opinion part-
The second brush at these changes are much "sexier" than the first brush at changes, and will make a huge difference to the way these changes are taken. I am pretty enthused about the changes now (as a whole).

Every race has something to look forwards to, these are the things I like.
Caldari - Cav Raven and the 6 lowslot Scorp (more apt to fitting an armor tank, AND more room for jamming amps.
Amarr - Abaddon is still going to be great, but the changes to the Apoc and the Armageddon open up a whole new style of gameplay, especially the geddon, prices are going to be soaring on those things now.
Minmatar - Not as much "Winmatar" anymore but still very good. Glad to see them have two attack and one combat type BS, seems to be more in line with their overall philosophy.
Gallente - Biggest winners of the revamp revamp, so much here to like, Hyperion is gonna be dead sexy (if it makes it into the game as it is now)! Megathron has a role now as a "guns brawler" with that tracking bonus (7.5% per level) it's going to be debatable needing a web against most targets anymore, It will still need a web despite the tracking bonus, so it will have the standard speedmod of choice, full tackle and cap injector. The extra speed it gets from being an "Attack BS" will be largely mitigated by the armor plates it will likely be fitting in those 8 lows, even with armor honeycombing (though that will help) compared to the Hype's lighter (mass-wise) active rep platform.


  1. Mega's had a huge tracking bonus, and has always needed a webifier. Honestly I was looking forward to trying out the 5 mid variant, but now without a utility high it loses a lot in the solo and gang levels for neuts/rr/smartie. I'm hoping they either put the 5 mid variant on sisi, or just leave the mega as it is.

  2. why use a 7/4/8 mega with no utility high over a 7/5/7 hype, which has a utility high, similar damage with drones and an extra midslot?

    1. Hmmm, extra low means extra magstab :) other than that, better tracking means better hits, so more "real" damage output. How often did you use your utility high on your mega? I didn't find myself using it much, but then it's been ages since I flew one. Mega is supposedly more agile now, so one of the reasons for needing a web before was the thing moved like a pig (mostly) might be more nimble now. Also the Hype is slow, Mega has always felt to me to be much faster. What are your experiences?

    2. My Megathron always used that highslot. Your typical plated gank fitting easily accomodated a heavy neut with a medium cap booster, or an armor RR for RR fleets. Solo would either be a heavy neut to screw lighter ships, or a large smartie to clear ECM drones. The ship would be crippled without that level of versatility.

      While there are indeed speed/agility/mass tweaks in the proposed changes that set the mega/hype apart, how important are they on BS hulls, from your experience? This is especially true considering a plated Mega sporting 3x trimarks in a standard armor gank fitting. I'm sure both the Hype in a passive, plated setup would handle very similar to an updated, plated Mega.

      Regarding the tracking bonus, you run into the same issue that's currently seen with the Hype/Mega: While the Mega has a tracking bonus, the Hype could just fit a TC/second web to match it. And versus BC/BS with a scramb/web combo, you're not going to see that tracking bonus much assuming you don't go brain dead and match transversal to your target.

      Lastly, the Hype has a full heavy drone flight plus spares, plus a potential light drone flight to the mega's 75/75 setup. Take that into account when considering the benefit of an extra magstab in the proposed 7/4/8 change.

    3. God damn it, I come in thinking one thing and then you just turn that shit on it's ear and point out how wrong I am.... :SIGH: I appreciate it. I hadn't thought it all the way through. The 8/5/6 might actually have been better than I gave it credit for. But I would like to say that a lot of people liked me pointing out the loss of that 5th heavy drone was going to be a big deal!

      Sard, once again I end up begrudgingly agreeing with you. I think the CCP reasoning behind this is the Mega is labelled the "Attack" BS and the hype is "combat" BS. But I think in action, that they are really closer related than just those names can say.

    4. Its very easy to neglect the nuances of hulls when you're not practiced with them. This is the problem with taking at face value the majority of opinion that is currently floating around regarding these changes: most players haven't had the opportunity, or purely ignored ships in favor of what the metagame dictated the most optimal or ideal vessels. Add to this a metagame that places BS on the backburner and you have a population of players that are out of touch with what these ships have and still currently offer.

      All the furor and bickering regarding changes aside, if there was one thing that I took away from the frigate/dessie/cruiser changes when I was participating in their discussion it was to try out the ships in their proposed states. I don't know how these ships would play out; I can only make educated guesses, based off my experience with current hulls that are similar to the proposed update. It's possible that swapped slots don't mean as much due to fitting, or that changes to bonuses add more than I realize to a ship's capabilities.

      That said I'm not a fan of the current Hype/Mega iteration, and hope CCP will continue listening and tweaking the designs.

    5. myself and my alt army is ready to support whatever change you request sir :)

      You're right about the lack of relevant experience in the hulls though. too easy to forget the small things and the small differences between hulls.

    6. "myself and my alt army is ready to support whatever change you request sir"

      That attitude is the sad truth of public forums, and a reason why I and many other people prefer to distance themselves from public debate. I would prefer you and everyone else who feel affected by these proposed changes to get educated on the matter, rather than adopting another's opinion, no matter how right they seem.

      If you find yourself in agreement with me or anyone else due to facts, relevent experience and quantifiable data, then you're doing yourself and those around you a civil service. Otherwise I promote players to listen to discourse and learn about the topic at hand before lending their opinion.

      Mind, this isn't a message especially for you Logan. I just wish I could sit down, open up the EO forums and have a productive session reading informed opinions on the topic, rather than trolling for the rare nugget among hundreds of everything else.

    7. Damnit Sard, you saw RIGHT THROUGH my attempt to get you to do all the work for me. No seriously, I don't want to have to sort through all that crap and read it myself. I tend to just believe what my gut tells me about changes + what those people I think highly of are saying about the changes. Then I tend to blog about the combination of those two.

      Sad truth is I hardly get enough playtime anymore to keep current with in-game meta, let alone enough time to test out changes on the test server before they go live. I wish I had more time to tinker! Was more fun when I did. I agree with your opinion though, that is

      Get educated before making and supporting decisions.

      That being said, I expect this isn't the last change to the t1 BS's topic we will see before Odyssey goes live.

    8. There's nothing wrong with speaking from the gut, though if you're uninformed you should be prepared to face the consequences, such as Goliath's remark responding to your blag.

      Very few people have the play time to become educated about spaceships, especially when compared to those that have poured literally hundreds of hours into the practice. I blame no one for deciding to not learn, but damn all that open their mouths without even an attempt to do so.

      Indeed, the proposed changes are likely several iterations from their final form. The last year has been a wild ride for ship balance, and tech 1 BS alterations so far have been no different from the rest.